Michael Small:
Can you give me some lines from “Trapped” that sort of apply to the whole situation with the police?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah.

(Reciting)
They got me trapped
Could barely walk the city streets without a cop harassing me
Searching me
Then asking my identity
Hands up
Throw me up against the wall
Didn’t do a thing at all
Telling you one day these suckas gotta fall
Cuffed up…
(Correcting himself)
No…
(Reciting again)
Bang bang.
(Correcting himself)
No.
(Reciting again)
Cuffed up, throw me on the concrete
Coppers tried to kill me
But they didn’t know this was the wrong street
Bang bang
Count another casualty
But it’s a cop who shot this
Who do you blame?
It’s a shame because the man slain
He got caught in the chains of his own gang

Michael Small:
I listen to that and I go, “Isn’t that like an almost exact explanation of what happened to you?”

Tupac Shakur:
That is exactly what happened.

Michael Small:
Now when did you write the song?

Tupac Shakur:
A year ago. The beginning of 1990, yeah.

Michael Small:
At that time, had anything like that ever happened to you?

Tupac Shakur:
Not of that magnitude. Just like a little bit. You know, like harassment, vocals. Like, you know, “Get the fuck off the streets, n—s. Get off the streets.” You know, “Don’t stand in the corner, go make some money, stop being porch monkeys!” And shit like that.

Michael Small:
Wait a minute. This may seem like really normal to you. To me, this is really surprising.

Tupac Shakur:
Right.

Michael Small:
This has happened to you personally?

Tupac Shakur:
Personally, yes.

Michael Small:
When you’re sitting in front of your own house?

Tupac Shakur:
No, that happens like a lot of times. You don’t see black men… We don’t have houses. We have, like, apartment buildings. And so the equivalent to standing outside your house is standing outside your apartment building. Yeah. You know, hang out in front of the building, sitting on the stoop. That’s how you talk. That’s socialization, they did it in “Our Gang,” they did it in “The Little Rascals” and everything. But we can’t do it. We can’t all be in a group. We gotta be a gang. We gotta be selling drugs.

Michael Small:
Is that something that happens to you, like it’s happened once?

Tupac Shakur:
That happens a lot. See, what it is that, because there’s no choices to be made, a lot of young black males are in the game, the dope game or the crime game or whatever. They’re in the game. So they’re illegal. So the police know this, and they use that to their advantage. That’s when they work outside of the law. They’re above the law. They get to do whatever they want, because nobody gives a fuck about a dope dealer from the ghetto, or nobody gives a fuck about some juvenile delinquent from the inner city. So that’s how it go. The police can say what they want and do what they want, and nobody’s going to really complain, because who they gonna go to? Everybody knows the law doesn’t work for us. And any n— I can point out, any n— in my crew will tell you it’s happened. And when I say n—, I mean N-I-G-G-A, Never Ignorant, Getting Goals Accomplished. Not n—, n—.

Michael Small:
Never Ignorant…

Tupac Shakur:
…Getting Goals Accomplished.

Michael Small:
In terms of those incidents where they yell out things like that, what is it like? They’ll drive by and yell things out the window?

Tupac Shakur:
They’ll drive by real slow or they’ll get out the car. It doesn’t matter, whatever they want to do. And it’s like, when the police come around, that’s why everybody’s like… See, that’s the one time the brothers can unite and everybody yells out, “Rollers!” or “Five-O!” So you know, ’cause I mean, nobody wants to be oppressed. God don’t like ugly.

Michael Small:
Do you think the Oakland police are particularly worse than other police?

Tupac Shakur:
No, I think every police… I’ve not encountered a good police department. The only good police department is a black police department, that black people have put there. You know what I’m saying? We need, we can’t be… that’s just insane to me. That’s just like, what if I got seven of my homies on the block and went and patrolled Beverly Hills? I don’t know how they live.  How can I properly patrol those people? How can I keep the peace if I don’t even know what their idea of peace is? 

Michael Small:
There seem to be, to me, a lot of black policemen.

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
Are the black policemen as bad as the white policemen?

Tupac Shakur:
Worse. Some black policemen, they’re in the force now. So they believe, you know, they believe they’re brother enforcement. And what it is like, they done heard so many brothers come in and go, “Come on brother man, come on brother man, you know, that white dude beat me down, blah, blah,” that they don’t even listen anymore. Cuz that’s what I was doing when I went to the… after I got beat up. They put me in jail and I was like, going to the brothers. I was like, “Yo, them cops just beat the shit out of me and they talk about “master,” shit like that. And it’s like, “Whatever. Get in your cell. Shut up. Get in your cell.” This is black cops, white cops. All cops are the same.

Michael Small:
Can we to through the exact incident that happened? Can you repeat it to me? Where were you?

Tupac Shakur:
Broadway and 17th, downtown Oakland. And I jaywalked. Walked across the street to my bank. Police stopped me, asked me for ID. “Where you going? Let me see some ID.” That’s exactly how they stopped me. “Where you going? Let me see some ID.” So I froze up, went in my pocket, got the ID. I got three pieces, my bank book, social security card, my passport. They was like, “Well, what’s your real name?” And I was like, “That IS my real name.” They were going, “What is your real name?”  And I just stopped answering them because, I mean, how stupid can you be? This is my passport, you know, my social security card, and my bank book. I’m saying that’s my real name, Tupac. So they got mad. I got mad. I was like, “Why y’all harassing me with all the crime that’s going on today? Why does it take two cops to apprehend me for jaywalking? What is the deal?” And they was like, “Don’t worry about what we doing. You’re gonna learn your place in Oakland.” I was like, “I’m in Digital Underground, blah, blah.” They said, “You’re not above the law.” And I ended up saying, “Well, fuck y’all. Give me my citation and let me be.” Soon as I said, “Fuck y’all,” they grabbed me, slammed me, put me in the chokehold, banged my face against the concrete, and I was unconscious. I woke up, cuffed up, with my face in the gutter. with a gang of people watching me, like I was the criminal. Then I spent seven hours in jail. Ironically, this is the day that my video was being debuted on Yo! MTV Raps. I missed that, because I was in jail.

Michael Small:
I don’t think this is true, but I think people are gonna say it sounds like a publicity stunt.

Tupac Shakur:
I know, and that’s why I am like I am. And that’s why I’m happy you’re doing this, because now I want people to know that, you know. I’m not just sitting out… I’m not just out there holding my dick cursing, I’m not just going “Kill, kill, kill.” This is not, you know, what I’m saying: “real n— for life” shit. This is not that. I’m talking about true-to-life incidents, and shit happens, and it makes you a violent person. It makes me a caged animal, and that’s how I react. And that’s how my lyrics are, in a state of emergency. 2Pacalypse Now. It’s a state of emergency.

Michael Small:
How do you get out of jail?

Tupac Shakur:
I got bailed out by my people.

Michael Small:
Then what happened? What did you do?

Tupac Shakur:
Then I sued. I went to a lawyer. I told them I’m not having it. I told my manager that I’m not gonna write another rhyme, I’m not gonna go to another Grammy show, I’m not gonna do shit. I’m a big criminal until they deal with this. And he said, “Okay, wait a minute. I’ll get a lawyer. We’ll file a suit and we’ll take care of it the right way.” I said, “Okay.” If not, what I was gonna do was get my hands on a weapon and I was gonna go up to the precinct where the guys work and just start doing some violent shit.

Michael Small:
But would that solve anything?

Tupac Shakur:
No, but see, that’s how it is. Everybody says that. It’s OK for me to get beat down. But as soon as I talk about beating somebody down, it’s like, “Will that solve anything?” I want young black men to see that the police is not untouchable. And I want police to see that they’re not untouchable. And that a 20-year-old black man could come and snap some money out of their pocket. And that’s what I want to do. I want them to pay me. I want them to buy me a house to take care of these kids. I’m trying to show now that it can work for you with this lawsuit. But see, the only reason it’s gonna… it might work for me is because I got a little money and I can hire lawyers to do it. But the, you know, the average young black male can’t do that. And the court appointed lawyer’s a joke.

Michael Small:
 I’m trying to anticipate what other people would say in reaction to all of this. So I’m trying to throw some of this in front of you and let you answer. I’m a case of a person who’s been mugged five times by young black males. So… There is a feeling from the police that these are the people who are doing the mugging.

Tupac Shakur:
Right.

Michael Small:
And how do you answer?

Tupac Shakur:
I got the perfect answer for you. Check this out. Me, as a young black male, I’ve been fucked by white people all my life. All my unborn life. My whole people, my race has been fucked by a white person for  all this time. Should I hate all white people? Should I strike back and kill? Should I rape every white woman because white men raped all the sisters? That’s exactly how I feel. That’s what the police do. Just because black people mug white people, that doesn’t mean that every young black male got mugging on his mind.

Michael Small:
That’s a great answer. Have you had any good experiences with cops at all? Have you seen cops do good things, help people in trouble, whatever?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, I’ve seen that. There are good cops, but… the majority are bad. And plus, since the good cops want to act like the bad cops ain’t there, they become bad cops. So I have no mercy on no cop. Only cops I like is cops that don’t speak to me. Just ignore me, and I ignore you.

Michael Small:
But if I was in trouble, like when I got mugged, I called the cops.

Tupac Shakur:
Right. If I get mugged, I’m calling the cops. And they should come, because that’s what I pay them for.

Michael Small:
Have you ever had to do that in any time?

Tupac Shakur:
No, but every time I’ve ever called the cop with anybody, it’s always took a long time for them to come. And they always grab me first, but think I’m the one automatically.

Michael Small:
Do you think there could be a change in the way they’re trained that could make things better?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah, it’s that power shit they start getting lost on. Plus you have to pay them right. Plus you have to treat them right.

Michael Small:
Oh, that’s interesting.

Tupac Shakur:
All of those are factors, you know what I’m saying? I understand cops. They got to, you know, they’re like…  they’re closer to n—s than people know. Because they got to deal with war every day. But see, that doesn’t mean that they can take it out on everybody. And that don’t mean that they can have this cold, you know, just talk to us like slaves. That’s bullshit. Because nobody allows that to happen in the white neighborhoods. So why let it happen in the ghetto? Why can they talk to us anyway they want to and treat us anyway they want to?

Michael Small:
A lot of people I’ve been interviewing for the book say, “I used to sell drugs, or my friends are. The people I hang around with are.” In your case…

Tupac Shakur:
With me, it was like, my homies… They loved me so much that they saw a spark in me and they knew I wasn’t a dope dealer. And so they did everything they could to have me not sell dope. I mean, I made so many fucking loans from dope dealers that I’ve never been able to repay because they’re not here anymore. Because they saw it, They would just go “Here…” you know? “Just make that album, mention my name.” And that’s how it is. And that’s why I can hang around dope dealers. Because I understand. very, very well why they do what they do. And I don’t want anybody blaming them until they can make an alternative. Because if we go back through history, look what America as a nation was doing before they did this, before there was The Great Emancipator.

They was going from place to place, kicking people’s asses, passing out diseases. And taking people’s land. So I understand it’s not that far from being a dope dealer. So I think that as a race, a human race, we gotta correct these problems. But they didn’t feel like we needed to be corrected. They’re like, “Well, as long as we out…” They’re out the dark ages. So let us stay. But we in the dark ages, man. We in this dope shit because we don’t have no other option. If you could live in my neighborhood, a ghetto, for just one month, you’ll be changed around. Just like “Trading Places” and all that shit they be doing. They know what they’re talking about. It’s the environment. You know what I’m saying?

Michael Small:
The people selling drugs, though, some of the greatest harm they’re doing is against the community they’re in.

Tupac Shakur:
Right, but you have to understand the state of mind that this young dope dealer is coming from. I call them soldiers, because they’re soldiers. They’re closer to war than any soldier in the armed forces. They have to deal with the enemy on a day-to-day basis. Walking around, seeing  your people like zombies, and you’re the one that’s making them like that.  That’s not a good feeling.  They know that.  But it’s like this.  I can tell you so passionately because I’ve asked the question so many times.  And they stump me every time.  Because I go, “Why, why, why?”  And they go “What else can a n– do?  It’s the law of survival. Either you starve or you feed yourself.” And the white man will not… and when I say white man, I mean white society. Not you as a white man, or I mean the white society. I mean all the Oreos, all the Mexicans, all the… every race. that wants to have that white man mentality. When they give out positions and when they give out product, they go by the young black men. We don’t get a product to sell.

Even the little white kids got Boy Scout cookies and paper routes and shit. Only product they drop off in our neighborhood is kilos of cocaine. And if somebody would take the time and look at the fucking entrepreneurship it takes to move the dope that n—s move… ’cause all they do is drop pounds off in the neighborhood. Trust me when I tell you. I know some of the largest dope dealers and they all tell me, “I don’t know where this shit is coming from. I know it get dropped off though.” Every time I start talking about culture and people and race, everybody goes, “Oh, but it doesn’t seem so day to day. You know, it seems like, what an age-old question.” But it’s not like that. It’s like… This little… all of that stuff fuels the day to day existence of the young black male. It’s these thoughts that go through your mind as you sit. You don’t even have somewhere to stay, man. How do you expect somebody to turn your product down when you don’t have anywhere to live? You got a kid, you got babies, you gotta feed the babies. Your wife is telling you, you loser, you fucking no good-for-nothing. You dropped out of school, you don’t have a job. What are you gonna do?

Michael Small:
Are you still living in Oakland?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
Do you live with family or do you have your own place?

Tupac Shakur:
I just got my own spot. It’s an apartment. One bedroom. But you know, we fit. We make do.

Michael Small:
Ice-T said, “Get out of the ghetto. Leave it behind. Go make it somewhere else. This place is… leave it to go to waste.” Chuck D is like, “Go back, fix it up, make it work.” Do you have an opinion on all that?

Tupac Shakur:
My ideology is survive. However you can survive. If you get lucky enough and they let you move into a white neighborhood and you get you a big house, live there. But don’t forget the n—s. Don’t lock n—s out just to keep your ass there. Because if you stayin’ there but n—s can’t come, that means you can’t be there long. That’s just a clue. But I just happen to be in a cool neighborhood where it’s, you know, both. It’s real.

Michael Small:
There’s both?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah. There’s n—s. If you go one block one way, you’ll go to a ghetto, you go one block the other way. you’ll be by the lake and shit, you know? So it’s like, live where you can live, But if you try to ignore the ghetto, the ghetto gonna come up and snatch your ass. I don’t know how to make this sound like that. But unfortunately, that’s what happened to you five times. It might not be your fault, but the ghetto snatched you. And that happened.

Michael Small:
The other thing is like, okay, so what change needs to be made specifically?

Tupac Shakur:
Well, first of all, the sneaky shit is on the down low, nobody knows that rap is educating the whole race of people. You know what I’m saying? Now that the white kids that are coming up are coming up listening to the black experience. You know what I’m saying? Therefore, these people, once they get older, they’re going to outgrow that. Their parents are going to shake that shit from them and they’re going to get a regular job. But see, when they get these jobs, they’re going to be in a position to hire. And then when they’re hiring and I walk in there, they’re going to know who I am. 

They’re going to remember this young black kid that was with him. A real black kid. Not the black kid they got on TV, and the black kid they make, but the real black kid, the one that watched your ass. The one that talked to you, the one that kicked it with you, the one you had a lot in common with, the one you understood, and he’ll get a job, and we’ll have a better world, because we’ll be understanding each other. Just like I can really relate to Guns N’ Roses more than I think anybody. I love that. I love them. Because they’re going through some of the same shit. They talking about some of the same shit I’m talking about. But they just talking about their people. And I’m talking about my people.

Michael Small:
Okay, what can a rapper do? A rapper educates through his music.

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah, I believe in education, but I’m taking more of a spiritual route, Education, that’s bullshit because who can I actually educate? I can’t do nothing but tell you my experience and hope that you grow from it. And that’s all I do, I have a lot of respect for Chuck D and I have a lot of respect for Ice Cube and all of these people. But they can’t do nothing but what I’m doing. Telling people their experience or the experience they got from somebody else. That’s all reading is. So I might as well use my experience. It’s been real rich. If we would just use our life experiences and talk about that, that’s how we can heal this nation. ‘Cause you can go, “Oh look, he’s doing the same shit I’m doing.” You know what I’m saying? “He feel the same way I feel.”

Michael Small:
A lot of the people I’ve been speaking to, like Kid and Play, I think, brought uniforms for a local team. Queen Latifah’s giving money to a boys club. These are things that they think will help.

Tupac Shakur:
I got my own program now.

Michael Small:
What is it?

Tupac Shakur:
It’s called the Underground Railroad. And I think that it shows that I’m not just… I don’t wanna just give kids money. And I’m not. I’m doing more than that. I’m taking on the full responsibility. I got like a kids group, a female, a black female group, and a female and a guy who sing. And we’re all a family. And we meet once a week. I meet with the kids once a week. We’ve got like a boys club thing where we go to the movies, we go out, we read together. They tell me about some of their experiences, things they go through and I make rhymes about it. They learn it, they do it in the studio. They’re learning brotherhood, they’re learning unity, they work together, they learn how to express themselves, how to communicate, everything. And now ever since I’ve been working with them, they all been doing better in school. So they also learn how to get along in society.

Yeah. So that’s the real thing, I wanna, this is the difference. I know it’s a difference when a kid’s mother call me and tell me that a doctor, a doctor, said that her child cannot retain things. And I said, “No, you must be talking about another kid because he just learned three rhymes in three days.” I mean, I’m talking about results. And that’s the real thing, And that don’t have to be in the papers for me to do that. I don’t have to be calling every newspaper and say, “Guess what I’m doing?” Just do it. Just like Nike say, just do it.

Michael Small:
And it’s called the Underground Railroad? Yes. And how many kids are involved with it right now?

Tupac Shakur:
Right now, I got a lot. Because now, as a matter of fact, today, a friend of mine that I knew from Baltimore way back in the day, I’m flying… He’s flying out here today to live with me. And he’s joined the Underground Railroad. We got people in New York, all over, Atlanta. It’s not like a set thing. It comes out of my house in my heart. Whoever I come in contact with, I try to do as much as I can. I turn my home into a train and I use the studio. It’s just like they stay with me until they get signed.

Michael Small:
But like at the meetings you’re talking about, like how many kids would typically be at those?

Tupac Shakur:
The meetings are like, they’re not like meetings where you come and do a meeting. We like, we hook up every weekend, just the kids that I work with, just the ones that are in the group, and we go to the movies, we talk. It’s like, how many kids? Eight?

Michael Small:
Did some kids then move on and you take in new kids?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah, once they get, once these kids get signed, we’ll still work with them, but then we’ll concentrate again on the new crop.

Michael Small:
So the goal is to get them signed as rappers.

Tupac Shakur:
Get them signed as rappers or get them on the high school or get them to where they start working with kids. Where they start working with people. Just like Harriet Tubman from the South to the North, I want to take them from illegitimate to legitimate, whatever way I can.

Michael Small:
You said you’re part of Digital Underground.

Tupac Shakur:
I’m in Digital Underground. I’m a member of Digital Underground, but what it is that I refuse to… I don’t want to play myself, you know what I’m saying? I feel as though I should stand on my own merit, and anybody who knows Digital Underground should know that I’m in the group.

Michael Small:
Do you perform with the group?

Tupac Shakur:
Yes.

Michael Small:
It seems so strange that I listen to you and you’re really full of fire and politics, I think, and Digital Underground is one of the more have fun, happy type groups. So why did you want to get involved with them at all?

Tupac Shakur:
Because… This Underground Railroad thing that I’m doing, it’s all a personification of what Shock did for me. He took me in and he got me to legitimate, He made me a legitimate person. And he did, he made me an honest man. He did something and had faith in me, when nobody did, you know what I’m saying? When nobody cared. I was just one more black kid with no money. Just one more. Just one more rapper. And he saw deeper than that and he helped me and he got me to this point. And that’s truly, to me, the most beautiful thing you can do for a human being. Not give them a glass of water, but show them where the wishing well is. And that’s what he did for me, and that’s just a great thing. And so, I mean, ever since then, I pledge my allegiance to Digital Underground for life.

Michael Small:
Just another thing, just about this whole black-white relations thing. I mean, Digital Underground has a white DJ. Right. Is that…

Tupac Shakur:
And that’s my n—, you know what I’m saying? These is my n—. It don’t matter, you know what I’m saying? We broke that wall. That’s my man. That’s my homie. It’s like that. And not because he’s white. And he’s not my white homie. He’s my homie. When he acts white, I tell him, “You’re acting very white.” And he tells me, “You’re acting very black.” You know, we get along. We really get along. In a real sense. And it’s not a black and white thing.

Michael Small:
Because you were part of the Humpty-Humpp  song, does that mean that you… ended up, I mean they made some big good money off of that…

Tupac Shakur:
Oh I didn’t make that, I didn’t make money like that. I made a little bit of money off “Same Song,” you know I got my little cut from that. But which is really little bit. And then I signed my own contract with Interscope Records for my own solo album and I got a little bit there. You know I’ve been getting a little bit, but what little bit I get I share. So I think because I do I’ll get a little bit more.

Michael Small:
You got some money for Juice.

Tupac Shakur:
But that was a low budget film.

Michael Small:
How did you get the role in Juice?

Tupac Shakur:
Spontaneously walked in and asked to read for the part.

Michael Small:
Where? In LA?

Tupac Shakur:
In New York. Read cold for it. Money B was reading for a part. They had been asking him to audition for a character and I just went with him. And I was dressed in black and I was like, “Can I read?” And they was like, “Well…” and I was like, “Can I read?” They was like, “Good.”

Michael Small:
What part did you play?

Tupac Shakur:
I played the villain, Bishop.

Michael Small:
Did you enjoy it?

Tupac Shakur:
I didn’t enjoy it at the minute, but afterwards I loved it.

Michael Small:
Because why?

Tupac Shakur:
All the work and all the hypocrisy of Hollywood.

Michael Small:
Oh, like what?

Tupac Shakur:
The hypocrisy. Okay, like… You know, I’m real true to my words, and so when I went to New York, I got a lot of homies out there. So I would kick it with some brothers from out there. And we was doing a black movie about young black males. So I figured it’s only right that I hang around young black males while we do the movie, you know? And they come to the set and watch the movie, being made about you. And the other… some of the other actors would bring like, you know, what I call new n—s to the set. T he manners, the ones that come from prep school and all of that. And that’s who the producers wanted them to see me with. And that’s who they wanted. And that was cool for them to be there. But soon as I had some n—s on the set, everybody started freezing up. And so they would always, you know, harass me about that. Then I got robbed on the set. This guy went in my trailer and stole from me and I knew he did it.

Michael Small:
So it was one of the people you brought on the set?

Tupac Shakur:
No, some other guy from that neighborhood, who had robbed me. You know what I’m saying? So the film people thought they was teaching me a lesson for being so nice to n—s that they wasn’t going to reimburse me at first. And they just like writing it off. So I was like, “OK, well, I’ll take justice in my own hands.” And I got some of my n—s, the true n—s, and we went and found the little n—, N-I-G-G-E-R, who stole from me and beat his ass. Right there, one block from where they was filming the movie. Because I’m a true n—, not a fake film n—, a true n—, and you cannot rob for me. And so he got dealt with. And they didn’t like that, And so I got a little, I got like… you can see I’m fiery like, So they didn’t like that, and they spread a little, you know, they spread that all through the little… they spread it all over, everywhere I went, that followed me. But that just makes me more how I am.

Michael Small:
This guy who stole from you, did he come on the set with your friends?

Tupac Shakur:
No, he just was one of the kids that… you know, when a young black male comes up to me, like I said, I don’t treat him like a criminal. “What’s up, how you doing?” Yeah. So we talked and talked, And he just was, he came and was there. We was filming on location in the street.

Michael Small:
Totally switching to a different topic. Where did you grow up?

Tupac Shakur:
I grew up in the Bronx until the end of junior high. I went to Baltimore. Went to high school there, in the ghettos of Baltimore, and then moved to Cali.

Michael Small:
But you were at the High School of the Performing Arts?

Tupac Shakur:
At Baltimore.

Michael Small:
And did you graduate from high school?

Tupac Shakur:
Never. Got to my 12th year. I went to The School of Performing Arts, got to my 12th year in a regular high school in California. They wanted to leave me back because I had too much arts credit and not enough for what they felt like I needed, like physics.

Michael Small:
So you moved here when you were in your 12th grade?

Tupac Shakur:
Yeah. And they thought I needed more physical ed instead of fucking drama. So I wasn’t with that. I didn’t feel like I needed the school system to tell me whether I was intelligent or not, whether I could make it in this world. So I’m out to prove them wrong. I don’t tell anybody else to do that.

Michael Small:
What do your parents do?

Tupac Shakur:
What do they do? Yeah. My mother is in recovery right now. And my father’s deceased. But my mother was a great, great Panther, great Black Panther. She was one of the Panther 21. My father was a gangster. He died.

Michael Small:
How did he die?

Tupac Shakur:
Freebase. Heart attack from freebase.

Michael Small:
Did you ever get involved in drugs at all? I know you said that the drug dealers helped you from getting to selling it, but did you ever dabble in it yourself?

Tupac Shakur:
No. I mean, it depends on what you call a drug. You mean, like cocaine?

Michael Small:
Yeah.

Tupac Shakur:
No. Never. Was never one of my things.

Michael Small:
But marijuana’s OK, I think.

Tupac Shakur:
Yep. Marijuana is, you know…

Michael Small:
I hear a lot of history from a lot of people I’ve spoken with. And I guess the question is, where do you get your history from?

Tupac Shakur:
My mother was a Panther, so she told me a lot. I listen to a lot of old brothers, you know what I’m saying? I listen to them talk. The veterans, I listen to them talk. My grandfather, Geronimo Pratt, he’s a political prisoner in San Quentin. He’s wrongfully in jail. He tells me things. Mutulu Shakur is my stepfather. Assata Shakur is my auntie. I come from a rich, rich line of Panthers and straight up revolutionaries. All of these newborn rappers who keep spittin’ all this “black, black, black…” they saying all that shit, but you know, they ain’t do shit for my aunt, my mother, my father, none of them, and they the ones that… I was listening, watching them say thank you to Miss Assata Shakur, thank you to Mr. Matulu Shakur. But to thank him, they should have looked out for his motherfuckin’ family. That’s how it’s so much rhetoric within our own community that that’s why I have no tolerance for it in the white community. Because I had to deal with my own.

Michael Small:
One quick pause here to mention that even though it was a year before the 1992 presidential election, Tupac and many of us were already worried about what was going to happen. A white supremacist, neo-Nazi named David Duke, had announced that he planned to run and he was getting a lot of press. So here’s what Tupac had to say about that.

Tupac Shakur:
I got a forecast and a prediction for this whole country. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart. And I hope that as a journalist, you put this as I say it. If David Duke is elected for the office of the presidency, I promise, me, myself, I’ll cause bloodshed to this world. There will be bloodshed. I’ll be one of those people that shoot places up. I guarantee. I’ll leave my rap career behind, and I’ll become a violent terrorist. I promise you, and I’ll bring this country down, however I got to. That’s disrespectful to any black soldier that ever served in the armed forces, any Jewish soldier, you know what I’m saying? Any minority soldier. You just got to see it as fucking a stab in the back. He shouldn’t even have television time. They didn’t let Huey Newton have that television time, you know what I’m saying? Malcolm X, you see the way they used to do? They saw Malcolm X as a racist. at that time. See now, he was the racer at that time. You think they were doing what they do to David Duke? David Duke is a fucking celebrity.

Michael Small:
According to him, black people are getting all the jobs. The poor white people aren’t getting the jobs. You know, I heard people on the radio during the election time, they were calling up and saying, “Look, I’ve got calluses on my hand, and I went in and I tried to apply for jobs, and they said, we’re only hiring minorities.” You know, so these people would say there are lots of opportunities that (black) people aren’t even taking advantage of.

Tupac Shakur:
And for these people, I understand. I can relate to a poor white person more than I can relate to a rich black person. It’s not really like that. I mean, I’m down for them too. If they down for me. But they have to understand… if they take the point and position that the black man is taking everything from them, they’re going to be an enemy. You can look through history and see that’s a goddamn lie. N—s haven’t begun to get what we deserve. And when I say n—s, I mean N-I-G-G-A. Never Ignorant, Getting Goals Accomplished. We haven’t begun to get what we deserve. Therefore, how can we be getting all the jobs? These little bullshit jobs… I want jobs like Rockefeller and Trump.

Michael Small:
What do you feel about affirmative action?

Tupac Shakur:
I’m not familiar with what that is because I’ve never had a job.

Michael Small:
Did you try for some and didn’t get them?

Tupac Shakur:
I tried and I wouldn’t get them. And then the little ones that I would get were so menial that after a day I’d be quitting. Because I was like, I was always writing and I would write while I was working, you know? Like if I had to sweep, I’d sweep up and then I go write on my spare time. And he’d get mad. “On the clock, you can’t write, you can’t think while you work for me.” And I just left. I was like, “Well fuck you.” That was the last job. To me, you working should not mean more than your heart. I think we owe each other as a race to really get to the bottom of where we, you know, find ourselves. I think if everybody finds themselves and they have harmony within themselves, it’ll be harmony in the world. You got to find your karma, your own personal karma, what you’re meant to do. When you do that, you’ll be, you know, you’ll be good for this world. And that’s what I feel like. And so nobody can interrupt that. Not work, not drugs, not police, nothing.

I COULDN'T THROW IT OUT

In November 1991, I interviewed the rapper Tupac Shakur. He told me about being arrested a month earlier in Oakland, California, for jaywalking. Here’s what he said:

Tupac Shakur:
I ended up saying, “Well, fuck y’all, give me my citation and let me be.” As soon as I said “fuck y’all,” they grabbed me, slammed me, put me in a chokehold, banged my face against the concrete, and I was unconscious. I woke up, cuffed up, with my face in the gutter, with a gang of people watching me, like I was the criminal.

Michael Small:
To hear everything Tupac told me, keep listening to this episode of I Couldn’t Throw It Out.

[song excerpt starts]

I couldn’t throw it out
I had to scream and shout  
Before I turn to dust
I’ve got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust 
I’ve got to throw it out